Precisely! We need to learn from the corporate move-out from downtown Montreal that was running full tilt long before the actual Referendum even happened. Worst economic decision in decades, and this bunch o' maroons just wanna do it all over again.
No, actually the lying Leave campaign, the lack of any post-Brexit plan or strategy by the Tories and the subsequent piss poor exit agreement is what has caused the problem. Carney seems to have incredible mythical powers for some people 🙄.
I think that a lot of people are looking for alternatives to the US right now. I think the trick is to not have all your eggs in one basket and to look for and take advantage of opportunities where you can find them.
Great article. I honestly believe that Alberta separatists don’t want to be sovereign, they want to be part of the US. Which of course is still a bad idea, as these people are largely middle class and working class - they’d find out quickly how expensive health care really is when they’re paying what was it? $18,000+ to have a baby in hospital? 😬
If that's the conclusion of the Alberta separatist plan, if that's the rebuttal that they want to give, they should. It would make it clear to all of us where this goes.
Definitely—and I hope you didn’t think I was being critical. Your article is superb, but I feel there are Americans pulling the strings, and it will only become more overt as this proceeds. They (the American far right and, of course, the Russians) are experts in propaganda, with division as the objective. They do not want effective government anywhere to succeed, and they want our resources. The AB shitheads are being played. Remember, the PQ were quite duplicitous in their attempts until Chrétien and Dion forced them to be clear with the Clarity Act.
We have always wanted the ability to trade freely with the USA without the threat of export tariffs, etc.
We're not looking to force Canadians to do anything.
Trudeau doubled the debt to double the size and power of the federal government. You have to explain how your "economies of scale" work when double the government did not provide any real increase in services.
We will be a true north, strong and free Western Canadian republic.
The Laurentians want to turn over their sovereignty to Brussels.
At least we'd be able to trade directly with the Americans.
Also - is Canada ready to cut BC off from the rest of the country? I doubt it.
Besides, Canada and the USA are both signatories to international treaties that guarantee movement of goods for landlocked countries.
Switzerland and Vietnam - which is doing better?
You won't lose your CPP. You could go anywhere on the planet and still get your CPP.
Albertans pay $7B per year into CPP and $3B back. We can fund a better system.
Note that the LPC have been on record many times saying that they see the CPP as a government asset. That' s why they boast about "best GDP to debt ratio" - that's because they include the CPP money in that claim. They doubled the debt and now we're paying over $55B/year (more than the GST) into paying interest. When they inevitably default, your CPP money will be gone.
The USA has not added territory since 1900. So, not likely a possibility regardless.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to get a closer COFA style arrangement with the USA.
All of Canada should try to do this.
Unfortunately, many foolish urban Canadians have no other identity than "not American" and have fallen for this strange anti-American leftist nationalism.
And our health care system ran fine before the federal government got involved. You have no idea what you are talking about.
That we have to even have this conversation is deeply troubling. It significantly increases costs and risk for our country at the exact wrong moment and does so for no value returned - beyond the short-term political gain for a few. The fact that we’ve gotten to this point is a result of shortsighted and weak politicians that have pushed too long and too hard on the politics of grievances to win power. Appealing to greed and grievance at the expense of the very nation through which we have built our way of life is the peak of cynical opportunism.
If this is turns out to be the phenomenon that leads to the end of Canada, through the destabilization it brings, we will be known through millennia as the fools that threw it all away (potentially the greatest country on the planet) for nothing. Chasing a few dollars more or looking to create a more pure homogenous citizenry.
Quebec has plenty to offer, that’s why those businesses originally were there. They left because all businesses need a level playing field, to know that rules and regulations won’t change on a whim, and that the social structure that regulates industry and business won’t be changeable or friable. Something that Alberta is currently toying with. And which will,happen to them too because Alberta actually doesn’t have anything to offer either except oil, an incompetent political party and rightwing BS. Along with an uncertain future which is anathema to businesses.
Separation talk is virtually guaranteed to reduce Alberta from a strong economy with fair prospects to diversify to a solely resource-based economy with no real prospects for non-resource growth (due to capital fleeing instability where returns aren’t guaranteed). And mined carbon is an utterly dead-end resource. Condolences.
It’s a lost opportunity cost — because no one seriously believes Alberta can or will separate as a whole entity. Alberta will end up locked into a resource economy based around a dying resource. No serious economist has ever argued that separatism is good for capital investment, outside of a select few sectors such as resources where the returns are especially high short term. Alberta is killing its own future prospects with this talk.
This is a very good analysis based on one given that is not necessarily a given - that Alberta continues as a true democracy. There is plenty of evidence that the current UCP government is quite willing to sidestep the law to serve their populist agenda - so much of which looks like the Trump agenda - a separatist movement plays quite nicely into the possibility of Alberta, like the U.S. using emergency powers to further erode the rights of people that don’t agree with them.
It is the federal government that does not respect the rule of law.
For example, the federal government has not come to the table in good faith to negotiate an end to equalization as the Constitution demands. Albertans initiated that change quite a few years ago now and it must be respected.
Another example is how the federal government has vowed to ignore the Supreme Court of Canada with respect to the unconstitutional Bill C-69.
You can't give one example of where the Alberta government has done the same.
So, you are actually involved in confession through projection here...
Only good Tory is a supposiTory. SK liberal here. I am sofa king tired of the whiney maple MAGA, reform, maple Maga Moe's; this is how the stay in power, it is their wedge issues; NEP, Gun ontrol, then immigration, convoy clowns vs. Science of vaccines, dumping the wheat board, long litany of bogus whining to get elected in the west, but missing the votes out east where the population is. Bitching because they choose to bitch. Choose issues that win in the west but not out east then bitch. Look in the mirror, that's the issue
I grew up in Edmonton at the same time as both Mark Carney and Don Davies (same school as Don, too!) I'm tickled that both of these guys are national leaders, as well as Calgarian Poilievre.
AB is wealthy, beautiful, and full of social and economic opportunities.
I've lived more than half my life now in Ontario, so I see both "sides."
The whining and separatist talk is embarrassing and an entirely partisan Conservative project, just like the Convoy that chewed up my neighbourhood in Ottawa.
Hoping an adult rises to power in AB sometime soon!
One big stick that Alberta does have to push for access to tidewater is it's ability to sever the country in terms of rail and road access. Vast amounts of freight flow from Vancouver to central Canada via Alberta so were Canada to deny access so too could Alberta. Just saying.
On the contrary Canada cannot practically bypass Alberta with rail and road infrastructure. 1st of all there are the technical challenges of going through tundra but also there are the bureaucratic ones. EG the ring of fire access is delayed because of federal bureaucracy and 1st nations consultation....20 years after the initial discovery.
I'm not arguing in favour of separation, I'm just pointing out a counter argument to the tidewater issue.
Also re TMX pipeline, yes the feds paid, but since most of their tax revenue comes from Alberta, one can argue that's a big source of the funds. Also cost ballooned to $30B under the feds. How much would they pay to "bypass" Alberta with railways and roads?
That's got to be the dumbest argument I've heard yet. Do you know why the Yukon is the Yukon?
Yes, Alberta is the entity which controls the land per the Treaties. Just as the land transferred from the British Empire to Canada, it then passed from Canada to Alberta in 1930.
You absolutely have no idea what you are talking about.
Your right to secede is not the same as Quebec’s. Alberta was created out of an existing Canada. You were not someone who brought territory to the table as Quebec, Nova Scotia, Upper Canada, Newfoundland or even PEI. The territory is not yours to take and the rest of the country will not let you take it. Even the oil you whine about is as much ours as yours.
Thank you for this article. The nonsense of this separatist sentiment is mind-boggling. I really worry about the extent of the propaganda machine that gives rise to this. There's a really serious echo chamber for a lot of the people who think separation is even remotely feasible and good for Alberta. We need a lot more articles like this pointing out how nonsensical it all is.
Precisely! We need to learn from the corporate move-out from downtown Montreal that was running full tilt long before the actual Referendum even happened. Worst economic decision in decades, and this bunch o' maroons just wanna do it all over again.
Or a more recent example: Brexit. How’s that going for them in the UK?
Yeah, Mark Carney totally F'd them up with money printing...
No, actually the lying Leave campaign, the lack of any post-Brexit plan or strategy by the Tories and the subsequent piss poor exit agreement is what has caused the problem. Carney seems to have incredible mythical powers for some people 🙄.
Well, at least their lives are not controlled by Brussels.
The elbows up crowd seems to think turning over our country to Brussels is a great idea...
You would definitely vote for the con fence post…
I think that a lot of people are looking for alternatives to the US right now. I think the trick is to not have all your eggs in one basket and to look for and take advantage of opportunities where you can find them.
Great article. I honestly believe that Alberta separatists don’t want to be sovereign, they want to be part of the US. Which of course is still a bad idea, as these people are largely middle class and working class - they’d find out quickly how expensive health care really is when they’re paying what was it? $18,000+ to have a baby in hospital? 😬
So do I. That's why talk of CPP, tidewater & currencies might be off the mark.
If that's the conclusion of the Alberta separatist plan, if that's the rebuttal that they want to give, they should. It would make it clear to all of us where this goes.
Definitely—and I hope you didn’t think I was being critical. Your article is superb, but I feel there are Americans pulling the strings, and it will only become more overt as this proceeds. They (the American far right and, of course, the Russians) are experts in propaganda, with division as the objective. They do not want effective government anywhere to succeed, and they want our resources. The AB shitheads are being played. Remember, the PQ were quite duplicitous in their attempts until Chrétien and Dion forced them to be clear with the Clarity Act.
We have always wanted the ability to trade freely with the USA without the threat of export tariffs, etc.
We're not looking to force Canadians to do anything.
Trudeau doubled the debt to double the size and power of the federal government. You have to explain how your "economies of scale" work when double the government did not provide any real increase in services.
We will be a true north, strong and free Western Canadian republic.
The Laurentians want to turn over their sovereignty to Brussels.
We're already embargoed.
At least we'd be able to trade directly with the Americans.
Also - is Canada ready to cut BC off from the rest of the country? I doubt it.
Besides, Canada and the USA are both signatories to international treaties that guarantee movement of goods for landlocked countries.
Switzerland and Vietnam - which is doing better?
You won't lose your CPP. You could go anywhere on the planet and still get your CPP.
Albertans pay $7B per year into CPP and $3B back. We can fund a better system.
Note that the LPC have been on record many times saying that they see the CPP as a government asset. That' s why they boast about "best GDP to debt ratio" - that's because they include the CPP money in that claim. They doubled the debt and now we're paying over $55B/year (more than the GST) into paying interest. When they inevitably default, your CPP money will be gone.
This is not true.
The USA has not added territory since 1900. So, not likely a possibility regardless.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to get a closer COFA style arrangement with the USA.
All of Canada should try to do this.
Unfortunately, many foolish urban Canadians have no other identity than "not American" and have fallen for this strange anti-American leftist nationalism.
And our health care system ran fine before the federal government got involved. You have no idea what you are talking about.
Truly a buffoon you are…
That we have to even have this conversation is deeply troubling. It significantly increases costs and risk for our country at the exact wrong moment and does so for no value returned - beyond the short-term political gain for a few. The fact that we’ve gotten to this point is a result of shortsighted and weak politicians that have pushed too long and too hard on the politics of grievances to win power. Appealing to greed and grievance at the expense of the very nation through which we have built our way of life is the peak of cynical opportunism.
If this is turns out to be the phenomenon that leads to the end of Canada, through the destabilization it brings, we will be known through millennia as the fools that threw it all away (potentially the greatest country on the planet) for nothing. Chasing a few dollars more or looking to create a more pure homogenous citizenry.
It is absolutely imperative that Alberta break free of the Milch Cow.
Just an FYI, those companies that moved from Quebec over their Sovereignty attempt NEVER moved back.
That's because Quebec had nothing to offer.
Quebec has plenty to offer, that’s why those businesses originally were there. They left because all businesses need a level playing field, to know that rules and regulations won’t change on a whim, and that the social structure that regulates industry and business won’t be changeable or friable. Something that Alberta is currently toying with. And which will,happen to them too because Alberta actually doesn’t have anything to offer either except oil, an incompetent political party and rightwing BS. Along with an uncertain future which is anathema to businesses.
Separation talk is virtually guaranteed to reduce Alberta from a strong economy with fair prospects to diversify to a solely resource-based economy with no real prospects for non-resource growth (due to capital fleeing instability where returns aren’t guaranteed). And mined carbon is an utterly dead-end resource. Condolences.
You're going to have to explain how it is going to be more costly than the over $1,000,000,000,000 in lost investments in the last decade alone.
That's before you consider the present worth of over $1,000,000,000,000++ in transfer payments from Albertans to the province of Quebec.
It’s a lost opportunity cost — because no one seriously believes Alberta can or will separate as a whole entity. Alberta will end up locked into a resource economy based around a dying resource. No serious economist has ever argued that separatism is good for capital investment, outside of a select few sectors such as resources where the returns are especially high short term. Alberta is killing its own future prospects with this talk.
Now if you could just condense this to three words, Corey, you might get somewhere with it.
I appreciate your sarcasm here. It was sarcasm, right? Right? :-)
Thanks for this Corey
Fantastic caution.
This is a very good analysis based on one given that is not necessarily a given - that Alberta continues as a true democracy. There is plenty of evidence that the current UCP government is quite willing to sidestep the law to serve their populist agenda - so much of which looks like the Trump agenda - a separatist movement plays quite nicely into the possibility of Alberta, like the U.S. using emergency powers to further erode the rights of people that don’t agree with them.
It is the federal government that does not respect the rule of law.
For example, the federal government has not come to the table in good faith to negotiate an end to equalization as the Constitution demands. Albertans initiated that change quite a few years ago now and it must be respected.
Another example is how the federal government has vowed to ignore the Supreme Court of Canada with respect to the unconstitutional Bill C-69.
You can't give one example of where the Alberta government has done the same.
So, you are actually involved in confession through projection here...
An excellent and compelling summary, Corey! I hope Danielle is a subscriber 😂
She’s unlikely to be interested in what’s best for Albertans. She only cares what is best for her.
We're already embargoed.
At least we'd be able to trade directly with the Americans.
Also - is Canada ready to cut BC off from the rest of the country? I doubt it.
Besides, Canada and the USA are both signatories to international treaties that guarantee movement of goods for landlocked countries.
Switzerland and Vietnam - which is doing better?
Only good Tory is a supposiTory. SK liberal here. I am sofa king tired of the whiney maple MAGA, reform, maple Maga Moe's; this is how the stay in power, it is their wedge issues; NEP, Gun ontrol, then immigration, convoy clowns vs. Science of vaccines, dumping the wheat board, long litany of bogus whining to get elected in the west, but missing the votes out east where the population is. Bitching because they choose to bitch. Choose issues that win in the west but not out east then bitch. Look in the mirror, that's the issue
Well said, Corey.
I grew up in Edmonton at the same time as both Mark Carney and Don Davies (same school as Don, too!) I'm tickled that both of these guys are national leaders, as well as Calgarian Poilievre.
AB is wealthy, beautiful, and full of social and economic opportunities.
I've lived more than half my life now in Ontario, so I see both "sides."
The whining and separatist talk is embarrassing and an entirely partisan Conservative project, just like the Convoy that chewed up my neighbourhood in Ottawa.
Hoping an adult rises to power in AB sometime soon!
We're not whining.
We're leaving.
As is our right.
One big stick that Alberta does have to push for access to tidewater is it's ability to sever the country in terms of rail and road access. Vast amounts of freight flow from Vancouver to central Canada via Alberta so were Canada to deny access so too could Alberta. Just saying.
On the contrary Canada cannot practically bypass Alberta with rail and road infrastructure. 1st of all there are the technical challenges of going through tundra but also there are the bureaucratic ones. EG the ring of fire access is delayed because of federal bureaucracy and 1st nations consultation....20 years after the initial discovery.
I'm not arguing in favour of separation, I'm just pointing out a counter argument to the tidewater issue.
Also re TMX pipeline, yes the feds paid, but since most of their tax revenue comes from Alberta, one can argue that's a big source of the funds. Also cost ballooned to $30B under the feds. How much would they pay to "bypass" Alberta with railways and roads?
More revenue comes from Ontario (38.16%)and Quebec(19.75%) than Alberta(15.42%). Alberta always overvalued itself.
That's got to be the dumbest argument I've heard yet. Do you know why the Yukon is the Yukon?
Yes, Alberta is the entity which controls the land per the Treaties. Just as the land transferred from the British Empire to Canada, it then passed from Canada to Alberta in 1930.
You absolutely have no idea what you are talking about.
Are you actually arguing that Alberta owns the land?
And then there are the Aboriginal treaties with Canada - not AB ...
Canada didn't make the treaties...so right there you have a fundamental misunderstanding.
Your right to secede is not the same as Quebec’s. Alberta was created out of an existing Canada. You were not someone who brought territory to the table as Quebec, Nova Scotia, Upper Canada, Newfoundland or even PEI. The territory is not yours to take and the rest of the country will not let you take it. Even the oil you whine about is as much ours as yours.
Thank you for this article. The nonsense of this separatist sentiment is mind-boggling. I really worry about the extent of the propaganda machine that gives rise to this. There's a really serious echo chamber for a lot of the people who think separation is even remotely feasible and good for Alberta. We need a lot more articles like this pointing out how nonsensical it all is.
A landlocked country of 5 million if no one leaves. I’m outa here before the ink dries if this happens.